Comments on: Targets in Gaza http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/ China and Other things Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:12:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.3 By: kunen http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-58332 kunen Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:07:11 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-58332 Israel is always a shame. It has no respect for human rights. So why recognize their rights to live on someone else land? Israel is always a shame. It has no respect for human rights. So why recognize their rights to live on someone else land?

]]> By: chriswaugh_bj http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56522 chriswaugh_bj Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:47:52 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56522 13 Israeli deaths. 10 of whom were soldiers, and soldiers are always fair game (sorry, but that's what soldiers are for). And four of those soldiers were killed by friendly fire (well, they're not fair game when they're on your side, but shit happens). That leaves only 3 illegitimate deaths on the Hamas scorecard this time round. This time round, of course. Historically Hamas does have a much higher body count, but the general pattern has held for a very long time. Tsahal inflicts massive casualties on the Palestinians (or Lebanese not so long ago), with non-combatants not spared, but still expects global sympathy. The Israeli government does have a responsibility to protect its citizens, which does give it the right to go after the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah, but it has an equally strong responsibility to protect the civilian populations of the territories it occupies. 13 Israeli deaths. 10 of whom were soldiers, and soldiers are always fair game (sorry, but that’s what soldiers are for). And four of those soldiers were killed by friendly fire (well, they’re not fair game when they’re on your side, but shit happens). That leaves only 3 illegitimate deaths on the Hamas scorecard this time round.

This time round, of course. Historically Hamas does have a much higher body count, but the general pattern has held for a very long time. Tsahal inflicts massive casualties on the Palestinians (or Lebanese not so long ago), with non-combatants not spared, but still expects global sympathy. The Israeli government does have a responsibility to protect its citizens, which does give it the right to go after the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah, but it has an equally strong responsibility to protect the civilian populations of the territories it occupies.

]]> By: Josh http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56221 Josh Sun, 11 Jan 2009 07:49:00 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56221 Good point, but your "balance" reflects the past day whereas your "context" covers the past 6 decades. Seems a bit...dare I say...<i>unbalanced</i>? I am by no means defending Israeli actions and don't claim to have a great knowledge of this conflict, but if you were to run into two men fighting - both bloody - but you only saw one man throw a punch, wouldn't you wonder what happened and why it got to this point? Good point, but your “balance” reflects the past day whereas your “context” covers the past 6 decades. Seems a bit…dare I say…unbalanced?

I am by no means defending Israeli actions and don’t claim to have a great knowledge of this conflict, but if you were to run into two men fighting - both bloody - but you only saw one man throw a punch, wouldn’t you wonder what happened and why it got to this point?

]]> By: rob http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56198 rob Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:21:10 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56198 Balance: 850 Palestinians killed 13 Israelis killed Percentage: 98.5% of the dead were Palestinian, 1.5% were Israeli. Context: Israelis have a state. Palestinians don't. Palestinians might be allowed a divided mini-state if they agree to accept even less than the quarter of their land they were left with after the 1948 war and before the 1967 war. Balance:

850 Palestinians killed
13 Israelis killed

Percentage: 98.5% of the dead were Palestinian, 1.5% were Israeli.

Context:

Israelis have a state. Palestinians don’t.

Palestinians might be allowed a divided mini-state if they agree to accept even less than the quarter of their land they were left with after the 1948 war and before the 1967 war.

]]> By: Neddy http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56189 Neddy Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:06:41 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56189 What I wanted to say has already been said by Josh, probably better than I could have done. But I'd still like to add an illustration, in the way of an article by Amir Taheri in TimesOnline "No way forward while the Hamas hydra lives", of how half-truths and "cropping the picture" may be misleading, even dangerous. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5477420.ece I don't want to sell you anything, but I'd like everyone to think about it. Do we want to stop the outrage, or just play the "blame game"? What I wanted to say has already been said by Josh, probably better than I could have done. But I’d still like to add an illustration, in the way of an article by Amir Taheri in TimesOnline “No way forward while the Hamas hydra lives”, of how half-truths and “cropping the picture” may be misleading, even dangerous.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5477420.ece

I don’t want to sell you anything, but I’d like everyone to think about it. Do we want to stop the outrage, or just play the “blame game”?

]]> By: Josh http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56177 Josh Sun, 11 Jan 2009 01:23:56 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56177 I've debated whether or not to comment on this because I know any person who even hints at disagreeing about a civilian casualty story deserves to get blasted, but I am caught by how one-sided this is. I've read many articles on both sides of this story and they're both equally narrow-focused. Are civilian casualties horrible and sad and heart-breaking? Yes, very much so. It seems that any war or conflict that produces this many is not worth the cost. But doesn't everybody see that there are casualties - both civilian and military - on both sides? Each side uses it as their "we're just victims" ploy to get international sympathy...because it works. Irsael and Gaza both throw bombs at each other, innocent people die and these deaths are used as excuses for more bombs. Why not focus on the conflict itself and how resolution is nowhere to be found because BOTH sides are unwilling to set aside their pride? Most pieces like this seem written to open the eyes of readers to see how evil Israel (or Gaza) and it's people are, yet they are no different in their motivation than their opponents. Don't feed the fire of hatred under the cover of fact-finding...even the truth, if left incomplete, can do more harm than good. I’ve debated whether or not to comment on this because I know any person who even hints at disagreeing about a civilian casualty story deserves to get blasted, but I am caught by how one-sided this is. I’ve read many articles on both sides of this story and they’re both equally narrow-focused.

Are civilian casualties horrible and sad and heart-breaking? Yes, very much so. It seems that any war or conflict that produces this many is not worth the cost. But doesn’t everybody see that there are casualties - both civilian and military - on both sides? Each side uses it as their “we’re just victims” ploy to get international sympathy…because it works. Irsael and Gaza both throw bombs at each other, innocent people die and these deaths are used as excuses for more bombs.

Why not focus on the conflict itself and how resolution is nowhere to be found because BOTH sides are unwilling to set aside their pride? Most pieces like this seem written to open the eyes of readers to see how evil Israel (or Gaza) and it’s people are, yet they are no different in their motivation than their opponents. Don’t feed the fire of hatred under the cover of fact-finding…even the truth, if left incomplete, can do more harm than good.

]]> By: Brendan http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56063 Brendan Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:15:31 +0000 http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/2009/01/10/targets-in-gaza/#comment-56063 I've been waiting for the people who were so outraged by China's role in Darfur to speak up about the US's role in this one. Mia Farrow? Steven Spielberg? Anyone? Surely the New York Times, the paper of record, will keep up the pressure on this one. I mean, you know, after they get done talking about the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/opinion/10sat2.html?ref=opinion" rel="nofollow">Everglades</a> and other important stuff like that. I’ve been waiting for the people who were so outraged by China’s role in Darfur to speak up about the US’s role in this one. Mia Farrow? Steven Spielberg? Anyone?
Surely the New York Times, the paper of record, will keep up the pressure on this one. I mean, you know, after they get done talking about the Everglades and other important stuff like that.

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